Are You Too Much Woman for Most Men?

    How much woman are you?

    You may be too much for most men.

    Single Ma sent me a link to this article over at MSN Money: Too successful for a mate?

    BK Diva wrote a post about it at her new place, Weight Down, Money Up.

    The short of it, many beautiful, fun, successful, financially wealthy or savvy young women are still single, and probably will be for the foreseeable future.

    I know that's true. I have friends who are AMAZING and aren't even close to marriage, engagement or even a steady boyfriend.
    Most of them are having fun just pushing their careers, hanging out with friends and traveling. Of course, once we all sit down with some wine and music and get to talking, eventually we have a thing or two to say about men.

    The explanation for this perpetual singleness for these fantastic ladies? This was a tidbit from the article and I, personally, think it is the sole reason for this phenomenon: "No matter how enlightened most men claim they are, few are ready to pair up with a woman who is more successful, better paid and better educated -- not to mention better traveled, more connected and more socially savvy than they are."

    I think it's that simple. The most wonderful, open-minded men still don't want to be second-fiddle, so to speak, to their woman. Heck, a lot of them don't want to be EQUAL with their lady. They want to be in charge and "ahead," however you want to define that.

    But what about you, DH? You've got an advanced degree, a young media career that you're planning to build up AND a man. So, how can you say those things?
    (I'm guessing some of you are asking that)

    Yeah, but that doesn't make any of that other stuff less true. Before I met my guy, I figured that I was probably going to wind up doing this life thing solo. I had been on dates with some nice guys, but it wasn't going to go anywhere.
    One guy in particular (well, two) were swell, blue collar types who both said the same thing: "I think it's sexy that you use big words." "I like a woman that's doing her own thing." "That's hot that you've got all that going for you." "Wow, you've traveled to all those places? That's hot."
    Yeah right.
    It's the same thing I've heard from men about me being tall. "I love tall women." "Tall women are sexy."
    Uh huh, until I wear heels  and I'm taller than you in public and then you don't think it's so sexy anymore.

    It makes me think of a woman I met at alumni function I attended this weekend. A successful lawyer and one of the first women to attend my university, she talked about the friction with her husband as she advanced herself.
    "You guys say you want a strong, ambitious woman," she said, then shook her head and waved her hand in that black woman way. "No you don't."
    And all the women clapped. It's the God's honest truth.

    Don't get me wrong. This is not a blue-collar guy thing. On the contrary, I think the whitest white collar dude would be even LESS willing to deal with a woman on the same level as him, and certainly not a rung higher in terms of finances, education or social connections.

    It's like Jay-Z said, "Get your independent azz outta here, question!"

    I have to believe that my guy is an exception to this rule. But, then again, I figure if he exists, then he can't be the ONLY one. So, where are these men and why aren't they meeting the women discussed in the article (or who are my own friends)?
    Maybe they are, but then, after a while, everybody's cards are really on the table and everybody has to be really honest about how they feel and what they want.
   
    Tough stuff.

    So all yall independent ladies who read my blog, what do you think?
    And all you guys who may dip in and out and never comment, now's the time to set the record straight. What do you think?

    DH

Comments

[savvy]

I keep hearing this but I don't know that I'm buying it. I wonder if the issue is women proudly waving their flag of independence, not realizing that IN-dependence can be counterproductive. Relationships of the romantic kind rely on INTER-dependence.

I don't think the problem is women who are "more successful, better paid and better educated -- not to mention better traveled, more connected and more socially savvy". It's women who twist that into 'I don't need a man', 'I can do bad by myself', blah blah blah. I suspect most of those women would dump a female friend in a heartbeat if she went on and on about how she didn't need her friendship, etc. Yet women can fail to realize that same trait is undesirable in themselves.

I know plenty of guys who have no problem being married to women who are their career equals or even career 'betters'. I think it's all about attitude. While their wives may be on equal or better footing, they're still allowed to be "the man". People (man, woman and child) like to feel wanted and needed and won't stick around if they're not. It's as simple as that.

[Well-Heeled]

I think Savvy hit it on the head. If I'm with someone who was wealthier, further along in his career, and extensively traveled & whatnot, but kept going on and on and how he doesn't need me or that I'm lucky to be with him then seriously, it's not going to provoke a good reaction in me. It's going to make me think that he doesn't value what I bring to the relationship.

Add in the male-female dynamic, and you've got even more stuff to talk about.

Everyone needs to feel appreciated, and given that historically males have been expected to be the provider, it's difficult for them (AND women) to adjust to the paradigm shift now that many males aren't in the economic provider role anymore.

[Liz]

I'm also not sure about this. But my husband is more successful than I am. And to be honest, that is tough for me right at the moment. I'm looking for work (getting close to month 3 on the ground) after a big move, and he is getting excited for two upcoming business trips, one to Buenos Aires. His prospects seem huge, whereas I have to think about changing fields, etc. Plus, his success means that in the next few years, while we begin thinking about children, he won't have a lot of flexibility. So I may have to think of putting some of my dreams on the backburner for a while and working not at all, or else part-time or freelance. I share this because I think that it illustrates something. These days, maybe always, a lot of successful careers are very demanding. We just moved for my husband's career and we'll probably have to move again in a couple of years. I'm 30 right now. Sometimes being with someone who is already successful is challenging when you are still getting yourself organized. Probably men face a little more pressure to be successful, so the idea of having to put that on hold for a while to follow the lady's career may be a no-go. Don't get me wrong, I love my husband--he is very supportive of me and we have a wonderful relationship. But it is hard to take the backburner. The reception from people around us, though, is great. My family always asks about him and his job. None of them seem preoccupied by my career. They are all excited about the prospect of kids in the family. I don't think that if our roles were reversed, everyone would be okay with our situation.
Interesting topic! But I also think that it is a topic that is sometimes overplayed. What are the real statistics? Guys are just as eager to have families as women, and a lot of evidence that I have seen in the past demonstrates that men are happier when married, and they definitely seem to remarry more than women. So I'm not so sure that there is really a story here outside of this author's group of friends...

[Sistah Ant]

The guy I'm planning to marry makes less money than me, too. But in many respects, we balance each other out and neither of us is well traveled. He knows I make more money, and he says he's comfortable with it - but I think he's actually comfortable with dealing with it, which is a different thing from it not being an issue at all.

I had a guy break up with me and later explain that it was because of his own insecurities about me "having myself together" so much in comparison to him. I don't know about that - it could have been that, or it could have been that he wasn't ready for what I wanted out of a relationship...

When I was still out meeting guys, I never talked about my work. When people asked me what I did, I'd come up with colorful euphemisms to keep people (read: men) from assuming that I made a lot of money or thought too much of myself. Sad but true. I wouldn't tell what I did until I determined that someone formed an impression of me without worrying about my success. But really, with a man, who knows... it could come out later in the relationship - he thinks he can handle it, but then finds out he can't.

[Single Ma]

I'm the opposite of Secret - soft enough for a woman, but made for a man. LOL! I'm a successful, confident woman, but first and foremost, I am a WOMAN - and I want a relationship with a MAN. A successful, confident man who has the potential to match and/or exceed what I bring to the table. What's wrong with wanting an "equal" partner? How is it any different than wanting a partner from similar pedigree, similar education, similar class, similar family wealth, similar ethnic background, etc.

It's not about bragging, being IN-dependent, or making a man feel unappreciated. Hell, I'll be the first to admit that I "need" a man. Yes, I can hold my own, but I want, desire, and need a man for all the reasons God intended.

But very few men can truly build a life with a woman who has accomplished more than he has. Even the most confident man has a fragile ego and will feel less than a man if the roles were reversed. And I'm not just talking about money, career success, travel, etc. The key to the equation is based on whatever HE values and he MUST feel dominant in that area.

For example, in my most recent "Upgrade ME?" post, you should have seen Mr. EC's face when he confirmed that he owns more assets. Psychologically, men are wired to be competitive, so I thought it was funny, but I can tell he was relieved. I love it though! I want my man to have more. He's supposed to teach ME, advise ME, lead ME, and upgrade ME. I want him to, I need him to, and I love that he WANTS to. Although I can hold my own in business and finance, he's better at it than I am, so it works. But if the tables were turned, it would be odd because he would view me as his competition, instead of his partner.

I think the article has highlighted a serious dilemma. The more successful a woman becomes, the fewer pickings she has to find a partner who complements her. Not only will a more successful woman refuse to settle for less than she brings to the relationship, but a man who has less doesn't want her either. She needs to feel feminine and protected and he needs to feel masculine and in control. It's a catch 22.

Sorry, didn't mean to blog in your comments. Interesting discussion!

[BK]

Ok I don't have to say anything LOL.. cause Ma hit my comment and my post will be up shortly about it as well.

It's not about me bragging.. that I don't do.. my momma taught me to be a lady at all times and I WOULD NEVER and I HAVEN'T ever thrown my success in any man's face.. I'm not too independent for a man because I need them and I want one in my life.

Problem is you have those who as history has defined the man as the provider, they can't understand that women can provide too.. you want someone that will have your back through good and bad times, sickness and health right? so you fell on bad times.. it's time for me to support the family and you have a problem? MAKES NO SENSE TO ME!

[L. Britt]

My boyfriend and I just broke up because he's at the beginning of a major life change, and he felt he couldn't do that with me. Especially since my life plan is more secure than his.

The thing is I bent over backward to be supportive. I attended all his concerts, tried to be less outgoing in social situations so he would shine. He got the second bedroom so he could have a studio. I was willing to move out West once I was done with my coursework so we would be close to his family (my are all on the East Coast). I told him that I would be willing to spend years abroad so he could study the guitar.

He said the fact that I may make more money than him disturbs him; that I have 8 years on him didn't matter.

The article is absolutely true. Saying that it's the women's fault that men aren't as accomplished or that they are insecure is not cool. Women believe it, but we shouldn't perpetuate it.

[Hollywood88]

I think that article is way off. If you really want to know why a lot of these women are still single, it is because they all want the same jerk guy. I call it the sex and the city phenomenon because just like Carrie in the show most women treat nice guys like Aiden like crap and go after the Mr. Bigs of the world. If women could just give a guy with less then perfect shoes a chance maybe they wouldn't be single.

[Sistah Ant]

Settling for less means different things to different people. Dating a guy who makes less than you doesn't mean you're settling. In the same way that a woman who makes less than a man isn't lacking for things to complement a man with, it can work in the other direction, as well. A man can still take care of a woman without making more than she does, and though there may be precious few men and women who can see how - it's possible.

[beckie]

When I married my ex-husband, he had no car and no degree. I had two of each. What he did have was a smart business plan and a naive wife. He started his own company and was very successful for a while. I was quite proud of my "entrepre-negro". Things took a turn for the worse, and the business collapsed. He became, rather, he started to vocalize how easy I had it as a black woman, and how the system was designed for a brother to fail. When I won a grant to present research in Europe, he bitterly proclaimed he was going to take a vacation for himself too. Every success I had won his disapproval. I realized I'd become the woman I'd swore I'd never be. Kicking his butt to the curb was the best decision of my life. But the cost I paid for learning that lesson almost ruined my life. Our problem wasn't that he had less education or less net wealth. Our problem was that he had less integrity and less honor.

[Single Ma]

@ Sistah Ant - I'm not sure if you were responding to my comment, but I just wanted to say that I agree with you. Settling, in its entirety, is not only about earnings. Actually, I said "settle for less than she brings to the relationship." It's whatever YOU think YOU bring to the relationship. I'd like to think that I bring more than money to a relationship. LOL

It's simply a matter of compatibility. If a woman is a well traveled, high earner with a passion for jet skiing, it's very rare that she will be compatible (or settle) with a man who has never left his hometown, earn 1/2 her salary, and kick it with his boys on the corner as recreational activity.

[Debt Hater]

Wonderful discussion ladies. No guys? Hey guys, don't be chicken!

I talked to my guy about this (a topic he seems to discuss with people so often that he has grown weary of it) and he seemed to agree with the first commenters: the women having a hard time finding a suitable mate are probably the ones constantly bragging or belittling their man.

Then, on the purely guy side of the mind, some women just aren't attractive. Ouch.

Beckie, anyone -- man or woman -- who can't celebrate the successes of their friends and loved ones has got to go. But many of us have those people in our lives and I wonder why we don't get rid of them!

L. Britt -- sending you some love. Breaking up is never easy, even when you know you'll be better or off or are flat out glad to be rid of someone who (like I said to Beckie) just can't be celebrate your successes or appreciate your support of them.

[Twiggers]

TAG...you're it :-)

[Reggie, another kid with good credit]

Hey Debt Hater,

can't say I'll comment on the 'too much woman' issue however i will comment on your debt graph - MAN - Hallelujah! - I know it feels good to have your debt under a grand I remember i was elated when mine was under a grand, and then $500 and then ...'Hey I can spend this money on clothes, and GOOD food, and my car'....Good luck girl. You'll have to give a good post after your DEBT FREE Celebration. Good luck!

[Orguy]

I wonder how much of this is due to where many women live. Successful women tend to live in areas where the number of available women greatly exceeds the number of available men - New York City, Washington DC, St Louis, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Baltimore, Memphis. I'll bet this problem is much less pronounced in areas that have a surplus of available men - Seattle, Phoenix, Denver, Dallas, Houston, Austin, Minneapolis, Salt Lake, Socal, Portland, Anchorage(!), Honolulu. Btw, for those whose future plans include a family, be aware that Anchorage has one of the best public school systems in the nation.

[Petrov]

Quick question... I'm curious why part of the "successful women" criteria includes "well traveled"? What the heck does have to do with anything? A lot of blue collar workers who served in the US Navy have traveled the world too. Some have even gone under the Arctic circle in a nuclear sub. Now THAT's something to brag about.

[Mrs. Micah]

Right now I make more than Micah since he's still in grad school. But while he's disappointed hat he doesn't feel like he's pulling his share, he's also always encouraging me to develop my talents. I think as long as he felt needed and valued in the relationship he wouldn't be threatened. I also need to feel needed and valued, like I make his life better...otherwise I would feel like an emotional mooch or like it wasn't a real relationship.

It seems to me that the men who've been taught that they're supposed to be the breadwinners have a hard time separating that from being needed and valued.

[Constance]

This is a hard question to answer. I'm a single mother with an engineering degree. But interestingly, the last guy I dated was in grad school had no money or car and I paid for everything. I didn't mind because he was my age and he was atleast working at an education and he told me he wanted a future together. After we were dating for almost a year, he graduated and the phone calls stopped. He didn't mind that I made more than him while he was in school. He graduated, started earning more than me and I got the impression that he wanted eye candy instead of a partner.

It sucks being a good woman and being single SOMETIMES, but I have to remind myself that I've dated some apparently really good men but I was not attracted to them. I wonder how many good men I missed out on becuase they weren't Black or attractive enough.

[LoisLane]

OMG! I'm never going get any, ever again. I am educated, well-traveled, well-versed, opinionated AND tall! sniff-sniff...oh, well, those are the cards I've been dealt and I love me and my life. Would I give it up for a man? Um, hell no. What I want is a man who gets me and what I am about without being intimidated by it all. Where the hell is he? LOL.

And, I think your perspective is quite right. Very few men want a woman who will continually challenge their position in life just by her mere existence. That's why so many successful men wind up marrying or cheating with then marrying their friggin' secretaries. No offense to admin. staff everywhere. But that is the truth.

It's a really good thing women who possess all those things, achieve them because we want to, not in order to get a man because it really does work against us.

As far a Jay-Z goes, his lyrics have done a lot to poorly influence the male half of our generation. He talks a good game but his woman wrote the anthem he's talking about plus "Survivor." So it goes to show you, he does not mean what he says...at all. And B probably knows how to pull those strings anyway...just like other smart and independent women do. LOL.

[livingalmostlarge]

http://www.livingalmostlarge.com/2008/04/15/social-status-and-dating/

Read my rebuttal as to women who say they want a man to treat them as an equal! NO THEY DON'T!

Or else they would not expect to be treated for the first date! And a women posted she would be WEIRDED out if a guy did expect her to go dutch.

So how is that equal?